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LoL Math - Magic Penetration Runes vs. Ability Power Runes

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Text Comments (246)
Joshua Xiong (8 months ago)
Magic penetration stronger.
Chris First (1 year ago)
Thanks for the great explanation!  BTW, I appreciate you speaking quickly, I was able to back it up to listen to one part twice.  Thanks Again!
Richard Tucker (2 years ago)
Thank you so much. I have been searching tirelessly over this for the last couple days. Love the in-depth details.
Zakaylus Awliya (2 years ago)
New masteries, this needs to be updated. :/
Zayik Gaming (2 years ago)
This video would be so much better if he talked slower and cut to the points
Karniak91 (3 years ago)
he forgot put some typical amount of ap from items per champ lvl and then ap runes lose fast they equal to about 800 gold craps
Martin Korbel (3 years ago)
+Karniak91 he showed that you deal more dmg with penetration when you have more dmg from the ability. So i can promise you that you will have even more dmg when you have items :). try to build the mask+pen boots and you will deal insane dmg without even having a lot of ap ^^
League of Toxic (3 years ago)
best solution 4: 10.71 AP +13.86 M.PEN THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENCE SKILL IN GAME
Alex Herberger (3 years ago)
the pronunciation of diana here hurts my brain
Garrett Ord (3 years ago)
Also consider that penetration helps %health damage abilities that don't scale with AP, including Liandry's Torment. Great for AP tanks too, like Gragas. The effectiveness of penetration is also increased after you buy Void staff :3
Hollis Ford (3 years ago)
thank you sir that was awesome
TokyoRoyalty (3 years ago)
I'm sure this is out there already, but there should be some kind of thing (maybe made by Riot) where you can plug in all the factors that go into calculating damage like the champion, the ability scaling, the runes, all that stuff. Because it's so difficult (well not really difficult but very, very tedious) to calculate with all of the factors at play.
aa aa (3 years ago)
It's also more interesting to get scaling ability power runes, it will be worse before lvl 6, but after it your ability power will go upwards way more then with flat ability power runes. I tested it a bit out myself and frankly, the best combination is to go with marks of magic penetration, everything else flat ap, yellow go for armor which helps a ton at low level.
Bez Vārda (4 years ago)
Awesome! Thank you, made everything much clearer! too bad I saw this just before buying the last 3 runes, but THANK YOU! Could talk a bit slower though, but simple and clear! :)
MLG Neighbor (4 years ago)
why do you say Diana like a douche?
MLG Neighbor (3 years ago)
+TokyoRoyalty it's Die-anna
TokyoRoyalty (3 years ago)
+MLG Neighbor How do *you* say it? Personally, I say die-anna most of the time, but I usually switch between that and die-onna (with the o making an ah sound).
Scrubbiee (4 years ago)
So which one does ziggs need
Elio Onorio (4 years ago)
The big question is, how many ap points compesate 1 magic pen point... i mean  is the 5.67 magic pen of the glyphs worthed againts 28 total AP from the Scale AP glyphs????
DotoMoto Production (3 years ago)
Dude. MPen counters their magic resist and do more damage with abilities. So i think dat MPen is better or the 5th combination in the video. U have ap + MPen and u deal a lots of damage
Grimxonic (4 years ago)
Thanks man
Veroveren (4 years ago)
i still prefer AP runes, bec mpen does not affect/improve sheilds and healing.
DotoMoto Production (3 years ago)
the thing is, almost every player wants the offensive things, like dmg, ap, mpen and so.. Well i think that nobody buys mr or armor in their rune page... If u r newbee, than u dont need a mpen.. Or if u just want not to show respect to the other team than just go full mpen and fuck them.. The best combination is Marks: MPen Yellawz: HP/MR/ARMOR Bluz: AP Q:AP And ofc it depends on what kind of player are u. Do u always go for full ap? (specially siv hd fans) Or u will get Defense Ofense in some kind of balance like lvl 1: 700 hp 40 armor 44 mr 28 ap and so.. For me, im the one from the siv hd fans and i always play like Marks: Damage Yellawz: Health and Bluz and Q: Ap U got it dont ya?
TokyoRoyalty (3 years ago)
+Atanas Atanasov what are you gonna do against someone that has 9 magic resist blues or yellows? What runes are designed for is laning phase, before you get your core items. Not many champions have a shield in their kit and the only other way I could think they would be getting a shield is if they were up to their inner turret, at which point, why would you even be pushed up that far during the laning phase?
DotoMoto Production (3 years ago)
Ye i bought full ap its op magic pen. Is for strikers like nidalee and other snipe heroes. Full ap is better
Tan Wei Jun (4 years ago)
My Brain Hurts After all the math
DotoMoto Production (3 years ago)
+Achaemenes of Persia that's true but no one is still in bronze i guess
teemo ?
Achaemenes of Persia (4 years ago)
You don't need to do the math. It's common sense.... no one at bronze builds MR, so just go magic pen to lower the innate (base?) champion MR (meaning the MR they have without items) and build maximum AP to have higher damage on AP based damage.
gypozzz (4 years ago)
What happens if u have more magic penetrqtion than the persons magic resist, someone please reply
Orestis T (4 years ago)
+gypozzz It counts as if the target has 0 MR. for example, if you have 40 magic penetration, and target has 30 magic resist, your spell's damage will be counted as if the enemy had 0 MR. There is also a formula for MR<0 where damage is amplified, but magic penetration has nothing to do with that. Someone's MR can get below 0 with effects like abyssal, Fiddle's passive, Amumu's passive, Ryze's E and maybe some more.
AtomicQuares (4 years ago)
I usually go nidalee mid with full runes of ap with the mark section being changed to magic pen giving me +31 ap, and +7.8 magic penetration.
DotoMoto Production (3 years ago)
+rajaa el ghandour who doesn't o.O??
d2 productions (4 years ago)
+rajaa el ghandour its still op o.o
rajaa el ghandour (4 years ago)
People still Play AP Nidalee ? 
Xin Graves (4 years ago)
I honestly and vehemently appreciate this episode. I like the whole series but, as a primarily mage player, this vid answers a LOT of important questions for me, at once. Thank you. Please, continue what you do.
BastivanDero (4 years ago)
whats with dots, like malzahar or swain ? When the ability of them do 350 damage but they are slitted in 4-5 ticks, is every tick calculated with the targets magic armor or not ? Its hard to calculate a different between +69 ap or -19,5 penetration runes when it comes to dots.
Justair (4 years ago)
seriously speak slower or give us a fking subtitle plzzzzzzzzzz. I listen twice to your conclusion and still have no fking clue wt u said
TokyoRoyalty (3 years ago)
+thynaruto You can slow down the video for a reason.
GJ Aguilar (4 years ago)
+Xin Graves Ohh shit!
Grimxonic (4 years ago)
Lol just pause the video man and take your time
Enrique ruiz natoli (4 years ago)
Xin Graves (4 years ago)
That's just because you cannot keep up.
kozmo fox (4 years ago)
Junior (4 years ago)
Are you the guy from Phant0mlord's No Dicks Army?
EricSmyth1st (5 years ago)
deathcap gets bonus from ap runes, penn does not.
Jamison U (5 years ago)
Thanks for posting this. It just helped me
nick00580 (5 years ago)
I have watched several vids of you, one of my favorite is the critical strike math vid.But i have one Question noboby solved. I once did top lane vs darius i began with boots, riven buyed a long sword. I countered it with cloth armor but then she bought brutalizer. HOW can you counter magic or armor PENETRATION?
nick00580 (4 years ago)
oh tx ill try that, i was just trading damae with a velkoz and i canceled hes ul with my golden card :D.He took much damage early and late game.
Marcelo Mazocco (4 years ago)
And good point, +Stirling Duncan. Bad ratios = mpen.
Marcelo Mazocco (4 years ago)
I just noticed one point I was missing: if you are trading damage too often, the actual health you lose is a lot higher than your total health (considering potions and hp regen). So armor goes well if you are not getting bursted. Otherwise, hp is superior.
Stirling Duncan (4 years ago)
+Marcelo Mazocco Tier 2 only really work if, like you said, need the MS, or are someone like Kat or Zyra who scale really well with pen and can't afford your big items.
Stirling Duncan (4 years ago)
+nick00580 Let's look at LeBlanc. She has high AP ratios, so you always want the big AP items (thusly DFG, RD, and ZH are core on her) over things such as Void Staff and Abyssal Scepter unless you need them (MR stacking and AP engage). Now look at Zyra. She has low scalings, but very high base damage, so she rushes Haunting Gusie, Sorc Shoes, Abyssal if needed, and Void Staff. You would never get Haunting Guise on LeBlanc because it gives her health (unneeded) and low AP (inefficient on her to other items) for only 15 flat pen.
stickmanymickmany (5 years ago)
I could understand this. Oh well.
Brandon Horvat (5 years ago)
Just Talk fukin slower man
promic (5 years ago)
yo talk slower man i have to check it more than once
Xin Graves (4 years ago)
Listen faster. Keep up or, get left behind.
Uncle Daniel (5 years ago)
what if its magic penetration marks vs ad marks... i can see Mp be better in some champs and bad in others... and ad.. helps in last hits and when skills on cooldown.. so its a hard choice
jA o (5 years ago)
Alot of the laning phase in mid is about pushing the lane, which is why you want a mixture of AP and penetration (pushing and harassing).  Everyone hating so much on the speed lol, i find it no different from a summoners spotlight
like (5 years ago)
Magic pentration the best runes for ap
Mohamed Osama (5 years ago)
I don't think i understanded half of what this nerd said
humudu (5 years ago)
it goes so fast and with a bad lisp i can barely understand it when i pause the video for every sentense
meansmark (5 years ago)
+humudu hahahhahahahaha  give this man a cookie
humudu (5 years ago)
+Osman Ali Ketenci I can guess your family has terrorists thanks to your name
The Deceiver (5 years ago)
I can guess why you can't understand him thanks to your comment.
TheMoungatalia (5 years ago)
Slow the fuck down......
NaW LP Slash (5 years ago)
lol dat diana pronunciation tho...can't handle it
Thanks for the video But its Die- Anna not dyana
Lisa (5 years ago)
Thanks for the video! I went against a teemo, who was building ap while I built magic pen items such as liandrys and boots. He had around 200-300 ap while I was around 100, and I won ofc ;) my masteries are 30-0-0 with magic pen quints magic pen marks and seals of flat ap magic seals and glyphs. magic pen 14 ability power 16 rush liandrys and sorcerers shoes. I laned against ziggs btw... ended up carrying game.
Lisa (5 years ago)
Lisa (5 years ago)
In ranked it was against Ziggs, and Teemo was for a normal. But now after the Teemo Nerf, I play Teemo with scaling ap glyphs/ap quints/flat ap seals/&hybrid marks. I main him.
mtaki14 (5 years ago)
So what was it then that you laned against? A Teemo or a Ziggs?
eye salve (5 years ago)
learn to speak, man... the video is interesting, but the caster is useless....
seenybeany (5 years ago)
I really hate the way this guy says Diana...
Financially Free (5 years ago)
what a fking queer ass lisp.
Tyler (4 years ago)
+Rith419 I think it's the burn he got from this comment xD
Rith419 (4 years ago)
+piero muro I'm not racist, the dude is a hate mongerer. I have an African/native American son, so your comment is unfounded, I have no regrets putting that dude in his place. The guy who does these LoL math videos is legit, he spent a lot of time figuring this out and put it up to help everyone and probably has some issue with his lisp, and that douchebag has the gull to be a dick And why? He doesn't know the guy who put up these videos, the guy didn't insult African americans, hell he's not even being rude to any gender, race, religion, etc... That moron got put in his place and it was just.. 
Spartanflu (4 years ago)
+Rith419 racist
Geodessia Gallant (4 years ago)
A good example of hate breeding hate. The internet is not an excuse to be trash to other people.
SoulerVids (5 years ago)
Wow both of you are making me cringe. The first guy is just a troll but the second guy's insults are so bad...
Friigs (5 years ago)
only if you're stupid enough to get your positioning that wrong... can't even tell how many games i've won with ziggs and nidalee with AP/magic pen runes and AP/UTILITY masteries :D... + with more damage your poke comes dangerous enough for them to consider twice before trying to get you (( SOMETIMES))
Matei Florea (5 years ago)
Red and quints ap Yellows armor Blues magic rezist Is that good? write me a mesaje please
Selrahc Scaasi (5 years ago)
By the time it scales to match what a flat ability power rune, the difference wouldn't mean much of anything. Having 2 extra ability power at level 18 is hardly worth waiting for when a flat 4.95 quint gives you better damage early on, rather than getting 4.95 at around level 14 with a scaling one.
conan263 (5 years ago)
pick Cass -> laugh at MR tank
Erik Sundell (5 years ago)
Very worth considering when choosing AP/MPen is the Base damage divided by AP ratio. Lets call this value Base AP Scaling Indicator (BAPSI) - Example: Fiddle level 1 drain deals 300 damage + 225% of the AP ---> APSI = 133 Fiddle level 5 drain deals 900 damage + 225% of the AP ---> APSI = 400 Fiddle level 3 crowstorm deals 1625 + 225% of the AP ---> APSI = 722 With 200 AP, you will increase the damage of a 400 APSI skill with 50%. (400->600) R(elative)APSI - Including current AP in the value
Peter McGuire (5 years ago)
Very informative, well done.
Zyncler (5 years ago)
Thankyou very helpfull!
lightfire darkwater (5 years ago)
bullshit full ap and full magic pen is both shit if you dont got any resist you will die soo quickly
CameronTheGuitarLord (5 years ago)
inuyashaa02 (5 years ago)
Die-an-uh -.-
thumbwarriordx (5 years ago)
It's a bet you have to make against yourself and your opponent. If you still can't get your lane opponent or at least kill someone you can credit to your AP runes, you've lost the bet. Magic pen is a harder stat to acquire, and negating some or all of the innate 30 Magic Resist stands to add up to a lot in the long run. With Magic Pen you accept the weakness early game and need to play through to the other side without yielding a big advantage. If you can't do that, you've lost the other bet.
StivKobra (5 years ago)
Did you ever get A- from maths? I don't think so.
dakellateg1 (5 years ago)
So AP runes for early game and Magic penetration for late game, got it
aizen akumetsu (5 years ago)
it depends on your play style. I like to play very defensive at low lv and start going after kills in the team fights. all I care at low lv is to not feed and to farm. so i'm going to buy full magic pen and flat health for the seals
gjorge1989 (5 years ago)
very nice work. keep up :)
Osher Shamir (5 years ago)
he says at the start of the video that he talks about an enemy with 30 mr - the starting mr for all champs
Lucifer Morningstar (5 years ago)
And I have 17 mp runes... which means i buy sorcs boots and will deal 100% the dmg + some% due to the champion having -mr to my skills ... op nidaleee :D
SloaTheDemon (5 years ago)
you weren't listening then he said that he was gonna use a champ with mr of 30 so that pretty much gives the x value uru looking for
Kildras (5 years ago)
I don't think scaling ability power is that good, you want an early advantage from laning which gives you a more comfortable mid to late game. flat ability is better imo
Dørmin (5 years ago)
he said this counts for champs with 30 mr
What about armor penetration vs attackdamage?
killeryodelingmonkey (5 years ago)
2:09. You're welcome
Justice Moore (5 years ago)
He said it is based off of an enemy with 30 magic resist (which is a standard early game tank)
RoughRunner (5 years ago)
obviously will be better late game but not early!! duhrr
psychobro (5 years ago)
30mr is his base
Matt Dblstone (5 years ago)
How is it for AP per level????
samljer (5 years ago)
isnt 30 resistance a tad below average? isnt 40 the going rate?
samljer (5 years ago)
I agree, english is my only language but for anyone who speaks ENGRISH isnt gunna keep up.
Zenonzazira (5 years ago)
He is using someone wit 30mr as an example
ILikeToColourRed (5 years ago)
'calculated against an enemy with 30 magic resistance' 00.35
Noahwus (5 years ago)
What about Scaling Ability Power?
Numberofman666 (5 years ago)
In this regards, can you just say whats better by how much? This isn't a math test, we aren't grading you on the work, just the final answer.
FraggingBard (5 years ago)
You used to be able to get people below 0 for bonus damage, but now it just gets to 0. and you do full damage with no reduction.
sean palmer (5 years ago)
I never really knew, If you have armor, or magic penetration, and it is higher than their armor or magic resist, what happens to the remander of you're armor/magic penetration? Does it give extra damage?
Bunny2086 (5 years ago)
This video is just explaining the best combinations for max damage output for a champ w/o including fight stats. However, if you're worried about your enemy's mr during a game constantly keep checking the items they're buying & you can buy items to counter them. It doesn't account for what they might already have though (Champ stats, runes & masteries), but that can be will guessed if you are familiar with the enemy champ &/or how they work/build. I hope this helps :)
bonzwah1 (5 years ago)
but its also worth noting that if you are adding 15 ability power to a 0.7 ratio ability (diana's q) targeting a 100mr target, you are adding (15)(0.7)(0.5)=5.25dmg. 10mp increases dmg by (100/200)-(90/190)=0.0263%. so if you're ability does 5.25/0.0263=200dmg or more, mp is still better. This get more and more to mp's favor with more added (with the 2:1 rune ratio of ability power to mp), especially considering that how much more ap items give in comparison to mp.
Ny Sage (5 years ago)
you could but if you have a squishy champ u will die easy
1n0ver (5 years ago)
What about AP per level runes?
Tyler Vek (5 years ago)
or captions
Amuny (5 years ago)
This is not actually true since you didn't consider the Magic Resistance of the enemies. Plus the fact that using Seals and Glyph in AP/MPen is uncommon and means extreme weakness. (Armor Seal + MR Glyphs is way more common), and therefore not a real comparison. Actually, assuming the bonus %AP and Rabadon, my own maths bring me to the opposite: AP Runes is slightly better late game if you have good AP Ratios. MPen is always better otherwise. Early or late.
SangoProductions213 (5 years ago)
he said he was talking about a 30 magic resist
Jin Lim (5 years ago)
I'm new to LoL and i was wondering why you cannot go all AP runes??
CHOLKYJ (5 years ago)
Actually mag pen is much better in any case. hopefully this explains e.g a target has 100 mag res(50% dmg reduction) and you are comparing full mag pen to full ap runes on an ability with 260 flat damage and 0,6 ap ratio. with full ap runes - 30 . 0,6 = 18 bonus damage + 260 = 278 total and = 139 after reduction. With 20 mag pen the dmg reduction drops to 45% so 260 = 143 after reduction. The difference becomes even bigger when you add ap from other items. if you have 500 ap - 289fullap, 308MP
Alex Vitkov (6 years ago)
0:35 against a champion with 30 mr
Yotam Shitrit (6 years ago)
as he said, the numbers are tested on a champion with 30 magic resist, which is the minimum.
catNoises (6 years ago)
Sweet Dirty (6 years ago)
Keep in mind: if you have more MP then your target, the difference becomes bonus dmg, which means MP is useful early game
Sweet Dirty (6 years ago)
Is there a Atk dmg vs Armor pen video? would be very useful
Roma Ashurilov (6 years ago)
he said lets assume the target has 30 mr
Steven Wagner (6 years ago)
In my opinion-- I am kinda a noob yet (I'm good @ math tho)-- AP is better for runes(aside from marks) because MP isn't needed early game, AP is. Having better dmg early allows you to get more gold(champ kills) and you can just buy MP when you need it later. You cant get that significant an amount of MP to justify sacrificing early AP, especially if your masteries boost %AP.
George Heaven (6 years ago)
yep I noticed that myself
naaperlaurens (6 years ago)
it was calculated on a champ with 30 mr like he said
Sasha Netishkov (6 years ago)
Good work, thank you :)
Jonathan L (6 years ago)
Don't slow down your reading, we can pause XD
ilangshot (6 years ago)
oh i didnt know that thanks !
Raylenn Phoenix (6 years ago)
I don't know if you've noticed already, but if you hover your mouse over your Armor/ MR when your in game, it will tell you the %. Even if your standing at your base to buy, and you can see the enemy on your map you can click on them and hover over their resistances and see what % they have and what the MR value is. kinda handy, especially if your not sure if you need something like a haunting guise or void staff, takes some guess work out of it at least ^-^
Raylenn Phoenix (6 years ago)
mm, don't know that i repeated what the vid said... dont have a memory that works quite that well. what i gathered was you wanted to know how much damage you would deal using mag. pen, so what i wrote was how to figure that out, if you didn't already know... cause if you knew, you wouldn't have asked. 69 MR is about the max you could have lvl 1. and if your target has that much, they wont have any damage and/or armor, so auto attack them to death and wait for a gank. -_-

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